Swedish Easter Wizard?

[Murfreesboro]

I think Penn. is considered mid-Atlantic. The New England states, I believe, are Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, Maine & New Hampshire. Boston is a New England capital, but Philadelphia is not.

[Pumpkin_Man]

Philadelphia was original our federal capitol until Washington DC was designed and built.

Mike

[Murfreesboro]

I think New York City took a turn in there, too.

Washington, D.C., seems inevitable today, but back when they were building it it must have seemed less so. I believe much of it was swamp land.

[Pumpkin_Man]

It was swamp land. Washington DC is located on the Potomac River. The reason why Washington DC was build is because of the potential for a conflict of interest if the nation's capitol were to be located within the boundaries of a specific state. To a large plot of land was taken over by the federal government and renamed the District of Columbia, hence Washington DC. I never New York City ever served as our nation's capitol, though.

Mike

[Kolchak]

Yep. NYC is where George Washington was sworn in as our numero uno presidente.

[Kolchak]

I think Penn. is considered mid-Atlantic. The New England states, I believe, are Connecticut, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Vermont, Maine & New Hampshire. Boston is a New England capital, but Philadelphia is not.

Years ago, I was talking with some people about US states and unintentionally called Pennsylvania a New England state. My buddy from Pittsburgh, standing nearby, almost ripped my head off when I said that. I knew it wasn't but misspoke...... I wouldn't make that mistake again.

[Murfreesboro]

People can get their feathers ruffled pretty easily about the way their homes are categorized. Over the past twenty years or so, I have become aware that people are now classifying Oklahoma as a Southern state. Even people from Oklahoma seem to think of themselves as Southern. Now, this just sets me crazy. To me, the South is confined to those eleven states that joined into a Confederacy against the Union. I don't even consider Kentucky and Maryland Southern for this reason, although they are clearly border states. Oklahoma was Indian Territory at that time and didn't even become a state until the early 1900s. To me, it is so obviously a southern Plains state. But I seem to be among a dwindling pool of people who see it that way.

[Pumpkin_Man]

When I talk in terms of North, South, East and West, I am thinking entirely of location, not culture. Those 11 states you mentioned that joined the confederacy are what I and others refer to as the "Deep South," or the "Old South."

Mike

[Kolchak]

People can get their feathers ruffled pretty easily about the way their homes are categorized. Over the past twenty years or so, I have become aware that people are now classifying Oklahoma as a Southern state. Even people from Oklahoma seem to think of themselves as Southern. Now, this just sets me crazy. To me, the South is confined to those eleven states that joined into a Confederacy against the Union. I don't even consider Kentucky and Maryland Southern for this reason, although they are clearly border states. Oklahoma was Indian Territory at that time and didn't even become a state until the early 1900s. To me, it is so obviously a southern Plains state. But I seem to be among a dwindling pool of people who see it that way.

The last final REAL flag we flew during our war for Southern Independence had 13 Stars on them. The additional 2 stars were for Arizona and New Mexico although neither was a state at the time and would not become states until 1912. Oklahoma was Indian territory at the time of the war but in the eyes of the Union, they were aligned with the South.

Revisionist historians are trying to paint a new picture for the 21st century populace by saying the native Americans just wanted to be left alone, and only those who were coerced fought for the South. Truth is the Indians in Oklahoma had been treated so badly by the Federal government that they had no trust at all in what they heard out of Washington. General Stand Wait is probably the most famous Indian who fought for the Confederacy, but there were others.

It was agreed early on that the Indians fighting for the South would remain in Oklahoma and guard supply lines to keep the South fed. There were units that fought outside of Oklahoma, such as the Battle Elk Horn Tavern or Pea Ridge in Arkansas. Attempts to paint Indians as scalping and blood thirsty renegades were largely untrue, but following the war the Indians in Oklahoma faced the wrath of the Federal Government.

It was largely due to the Indians choosing the wrong side that got Oklahoma opened up to the white man and western expansion.

The rest is very sadly history.

[Kolchak]

Edit....

The way things are in Atlanta, Nashville, Charlotte, Tampa and other Southern cities these days. Oklahoma might have more REAL Southrons living there than we do in the original 11!

[MauEvig]

Thanks for the history lesson Kolchak, I never knew native Americans fought for the confederacy.
I always wondered what would have happened if the confederacy had won the Civil war? Things would certainly have ended up much, much different in history that is for sure.

[Kolchak]

What if? Yea that question has been asked about zillion times. I doubt if we would have the economic woes we have today. Certainly interference from the Federal Government would have been not the problem we face today.

Revisionists think that a violent war was needed to end slavery here, but that's just people who hate us in the South and want to paint us as evil monsters. Don't get me wrong, slavery was wrong from top to bottom, but we were the only country aside from Haiti that had to kill thousands of its people for the practice to end. The ONLY good thing that came from the civil war was it ended slavery. If the South had won its two biggest trading partners (Britain and France) would have used their economic power to force the South to Emancipate the slaves. It would not have happened over night and it wouldn't have happened without some dragging their heels, but it would have happened.

More to the point is the legality of secession. Thomas Jefferson and most of the signers of the Declaration of Independence believed that the main power rested with the states and the Federal government was to remain weak. James Madison favored a stronger central government at the time but changed his views somewhat later.

This has been the crux of the issue for all these years. Lincoln and Woodrow Wilson were strong proponents of a strong national government, and the states being subservient to them.

In my mind the war was an illegal one, but today nobody cares. They can only listen to 1 minute sound bite that is recited by some Hollywood actor who doesn't have a clue to what they are saying, but in todays political climate, freedom of expression is only allowed if you belong to the politically correct segment. If you're politically correct, you're allowed to hate people and tell others what and how to think. Anyone running counter to that loses their job or worse.

Would there have been a depression? A WWI and WWII? Would there have been a United Nations? Vietnam? Moon landing? Who knows?

[MauEvig]

I've always asked myself in different scenarios throughout history, throughout my own life, and even in something as trivial as a movie, what would have happened if it had gone a certain way, instead of the way it did go. Maybe I'm too philosophical asking so many what if questions, but I always wonder.
Now, I make no secret that I'm a "yankee" born and raised in New York state, but the more I learn about the Civil War, the more I begin to think that maybe...just maybe the South would have been better off if they had won. It sounds really controversial to say that and I'm a little afraid of what people would think of me for thinking that, but I think the South has a point. It also sounds like slavery would have ended in a more peaceful manner. I do agree that slavery is wrong, and that everyone deserves to be treated equally, regardless if they are black, white, asian, hispanic, native american, male or female, gay, straight, bisexual, pansexual or asexual. We're all human beings, that's what is important. But perhaps the South just needed time to realize that. Sometimes I feel like the South feels bitter toward it's Northern brethren because of the Civil War. And I can see that the Government does seem to have too much power, it's become corrupt. I think the Government was meant to be in balance, the checks and balances system was supposed to keep the Government from becoming too powerful.
So who knows. Maybe I was a Southerner in a past life. The North likes to pick on the South a lot, but I have seen a great deal of technological advances in the South, and they are hardly the "stereotype" they are made out to be up North. The thing I find amusing though is people think I'm so much different. It's true there are a lot of differences such as an accent, and different ways of preparing food (macaroni salad is made WAY different up North than it is down South) but I grew up in the country part of New York, with farms, tractors, wild life and more. Instead of focusing on differences, people should focus on what is the same. I'm not a city gal by any means, but a country gal in heart and soul (except for the music, I prefer Heavy Metal. Can't stand country music) For the record, people in New York think everyone from Virginia is from Virginia beach. My favorite music in contrast is hearing the river flowing, the birds singing, the frogs croaking, the crickets chirping, and the wind blowing. If only some of the people from these small towns in the South could see the small towns up North. They would see tractors, cows, country side, back yard barbecues, guys sitting out on the porch drinking beer, guys getting ready to bring home that prize buck during Deer season and more. We're not as different as you'd think.

Perhaps the war was an illegal one. i wouldn't mind listening if you'd like to elaborate more on that. I wondered what would happen if there was a depression, WWI, WWII, the UN etc. myself. A single ripple in the water can affect the whole pond. It's even possible that we wouldn't exist, and it'd be a whole new world. But I do believe in alternate realities, so somewhere in another Universe, the South did win, and it would be an entirely different world.
If there was a WWI and a WWII in such a scenario, I wonder which side the US would take, and which side the Confederates would have taken.

[Kolchak]

Well Mau, I tried to answer you but I guess there is a time lock on this thing, because when I tried to submit my finished piece it went to the log in page and I lost the entire thing! I promise I'll try it again when I get the time and I'll be not as long, because I hate losing stuff on a computer. Somebody needs to invent a timer that lets you know when you're fixing to lose your posting ability.

[MauEvig]

It's OK! Take your time Kolchak. I completely understand. Sometimes you go to send something and then you get an error message and the whole thing is gone. x.x
It's not exclusive to this forum either. I've had it happen elsewhere too.